[zzo38]

The apprentice uses it without thinking. The journeyman avoids it without thinking. The master uses it thoughtfully.

Caverns does not exhaust all of the possibilities of built-ins.

[Risu2112]

zzo38, on Aug 9 2008, 10:01 AM, said:

The apprentice uses it without thinking. The journeyman avoids it without thinking. The master uses it thoughtfully.

Caverns does not exhaust all of the possibilities of built-ins.

No, but Talon's Tale very well might have.

This post has been edited by Risu2112: 09 August 2008 - 06:28 PM

[Exophase]

What is the purpose of this thread...

[LogiCow]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I use functions
And so should you

[zzo38]

Risu2112, on Aug 9 2008, 10:27 AM, said:

No, but Talon's Tale very well might have.

Even Talon's Tale doesn't. The game "Super ASCII MZX Town" does many new things with built-ins (and also with robots as well), but even that hasn't even half-way exhausted it.

[Terryn]

zzo: Have you played the ZZT game Inhabitant?

Are you thinking about using built-ins like that, where they're less "used" but "exploited"?

Explain what you mean by "exhausts all of the possibilities of built-ins".

[zzo38]

Terryn, on Aug 9 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

zzo: Have you played the ZZT game Inhabitant?

Are you thinking about using built-ins like that, where they're less "used" but "exploited"?

Explain what you mean by "exhausts all of the possibilities of built-ins".

I didn't play the game "Inhabitant". I cannot find the download link on Google or Z2. Can you post a link, please? And then maybe I can answer your question(s) better

[Terryn]

http://zzt.belsambar...s/i/INHBTNT.ZIP

[zzo38]

Terryn, on Aug 9 2008, 03:32 PM, said:

http://zzt.belsambar...s/i/INHBTNT.ZIP

That game hardly makes any sense, but that is one way that you can use the built-ins in more ways. What I meant, however, was how in Super ASCII MZX Town I used built-ins and robots mixed. However, I do have one puzzle that uses only built-ins (actually there is 1 robot on that board, but it you don't need it to solve the puzzle), and it is very different than any other MZX puzzles I have seen. Other puzzles in there mix robots and built-ins in new ways.

[Exophase]

I'm sure that there are creative ways to use builtins, but why would anyone bother when it's more straightforward and flexible to just use robots to accomplish what you want? I don't think people care that much about the novelty of how a game is implemented, they just want a quality game.

[zzo38]

Exophase, on Aug 9 2008, 05:16 PM, said:

...... when it's more straightforward and flexible to just use robots to accomplish what you want?.......

Actually for what I am doing, it isn't.

[Exophase]

zzo38, on Aug 9 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

Actually for what I am doing, it isn't.

Then do whatever it is you're doing. The rest of us will continue doing things the sensible way.

[zzo38]

Exophase, on Aug 9 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

Then do whatever it is you're doing. The rest of us will continue doing things the sensible way.

OK. You do it in the way which is sensible to you. But I think combination of built-ins and robots is the best way. I also think that a combination of gotos and structured programming is also the best way, it depend what program you wrote. Same thing with MegaZeux, it depend what game you made.

[Lachesis]

This isn't ZZT. These days, in MZX, robots can do everything builtins can and more. I agree with Exophase, I'll stick to doing things the sensible way.

This post has been edited by Kuroneko: 10 August 2008 - 04:08 AM

[weasel]

I'm siding with Exophase on this one, but I would like to see what exactly it is that you're working on that would need to be achieved using builtins.

[zzo38]

Kuroneko, on Aug 9 2008, 08:08 PM, said:

This isn't ZZT. These days, in MZX, robots can do everything builtins can and more. I agree with Exophase, I'll stick to doing things the sensible way.

Unfortunately, MZX robots are still too limited (not as limited as ZZT, but still limited), but so are built-ins. Robots can do a lot more stuff than built-ins, but not everything built-ins can do. See the "Super ASCII MZX Town" game you might see what I meant by that. And I think you can make the game how you want to, it is still good either way, as long as it is a good game. Some things need sensors to do it, but even combine a robot+sensor doesn't do everything! (Of course, built-ins also take up less memory and disk-space than robots do, but don't make a game entirely of built-ins!) There are also many properties of the built-ins (and robots) that many people don't recognize.

Quote

I'm siding with Exophase on this one, but I would like to see what exactly it is that you're working on that would need to be achieved using builtins.

See http://zzo38computer...TO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP and select "Bomb puzzle" from the demo menu. That board has only a single robot on it, which isn't even used to solve the puzzle. There is no codes you can look at to help you to solve that puzzle. That puzzle just wouldn't work good with robots (regardless of any codes you might be able to look up to help you to solve it). Also try the "Inappropriate keys sold here" puzzle and the "Music is the key" puzzle, both of which use a combination of robots and built-ins to make up the puzzle. They just wouldn't work any other way.

[Risu2112]

Super ascii mzx town was the least amount of fun I've had in mzx since Odell the mermaid.

[LogiCow]

Technically, being Turing complete, robots can do anything built-ins do.


Also what the hell, I tried the bomb puzzle and it's impossible.

Edit: oh I get it explosions block transporters. I guess I had bad timing the two times I tried that.

This post has been edited by LogiCow: 10 August 2008 - 07:15 PM

[zzo38]

LogiCow, on Aug 10 2008, 11:11 AM, said:

Technically, being Turing complete, robots can do anything built-ins do.

That is not what turing complete is. Turing complete means that you can do any calculation a turing machine (or any computer) can do, but possibly slower. It has nothing to do with how well it can interact with things outside of their calculations.

[RoSS]

Built-ins can be made with turing machine logic;
robots can use turing machine logic;
hence, robots can do what built-ins do.

[Micah]

Name one built-in that can't be replicated in robotic : /

[Koji]

Bet you can't make a carpet with a robot...

[Micah]

put c?? carpet p?? at x y

[zzo38]

Micah, on Aug 10 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

put c?? carpet p?? at x y

You can create a carpet in Robotic, but you can't be a carpet in Robotic. You can make a sensor act like a key, though. But still many things can't be done in Robotic (even with sensors).

This post has been edited by zzo38: 11 August 2008 - 04:41 AM

[weasel]

zzo38, on Aug 10 2008, 08:41 PM, said:

But still many things can't be done in Robotic (even with sensors).

Many useless things, more accurately. I can't see any reason to make a robot behave like a carpet.

[LogiCow]

you can make a robot that checks if the tile has an object on top of it, and if it does not, shows the carpet's character there.

[RoSS]

In my mind, there are two types of objects in megazeux: objects that do things and objects that lay there. Tigers, keys, doors, pushers, sliders, scrolls, and breakable walls, for instance, are objects that do things. Solids, floors, text, and webs, for instance, just lay there. Robots are, by nature, objects that do things, and in fact can either do or emulate well what almost every other do stuff object can do. It is unfair to ask a robot to just lay there since you have to go out of your way to do something that can be done with terrain-like objects-- and yes, you can make carpets in robotic, just when touched, change its position to somewhere offscreen or do whatever to make it disappear and put the player where the robot used to be, then wait until the player is no longer in the spot and teleport back.

[nooodl]

zzo38, on Aug 11 2008, 06:41 AM, said:

You can create a carpet in Robotic, but you can't be a carpet in Robotic. You can make a sensor act like a key, though. But still many things can't be done in Robotic (even with sensors).

color c0c
char '²'
end
: "touch"
lockplayer
playercolor is c00
color c1b
char ''
wait for 1
: "a"
if uppressed then "u"
if downpressed then "d"
if leftpressed then "l"
if rightpressed then "r"
wait for 1
goto "a"
: "u"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player NORTH
color c0c
char '²'
end
: "r"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player EAST
color c0c
char '²'
end
: "d"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player SOUTH
color c0c
char '²'
end
: "l"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player WEST
color c0c
char '²'
end

[zzo38]

nooodl, on Aug 11 2008, 02:21 AM, said:

color c0c
char '²'
end
: "touch"
lockplayer
playercolor is c00
color c1b
char ''
wait for 1
: "a"
if uppressed then "u"
if downpressed then "d"
if leftpressed then "l"
if rightpressed then "r"
wait for 1
goto "a"
: "u"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player NORTH
color c0c
char '²'
end
: "r"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player EAST
color c0c
char '²'
end
: "d"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player SOUTH
color c0c
char '²'
end
: "l"
unlockplayer
playercolor is c1b
put player WEST
color c0c
char '²'
end

WRONG. There are a lot of things wrong with that. It only works in a small number of circumstances.

[zzo38]

RoSS, on Aug 11 2008, 12:51 AM, said:

and yes, you can make carpets in robotic, just when touched, change its position to somewhere offscreen or do whatever to make it disappear and put the player where the robot used to be, then wait until the player is no longer in the spot and teleport back.

The player isn't the only thing that can step on carpets.