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Winter DoZ 2011 Results

#1 User is offline   GetDizzy 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 12:20 PM

First up, lets list all the teams and their members that submitted:


#47238 - Team: Finish or DQ - Members: Old-Sckool - Game: Mission: Most Likely Horribly Incomplete
#98485 - Team: go to hell - Members: Lachesis, Lancer-X, CJA - Game: Thanatos Insignia
#7865 - Team: [Team Name] - Members: Kom, hayashi - Game: Anger is an Energy
#3.1415... - Team: Cute Bounty Hunter - Members: Baby Bonnie Hood - Game: Demons, Demons, Everywhere
#0 - Team: Hot Dog Standard - Members: greasemonkey - Game: VIOLENCE MAKES YOU STUPID
#-1 - Team: Unstable Modality - Members: ThdPro, brother - Game: All That Violence



And the results:

#1: 98485 - Terryn: 315 KKairos: 328 Logicow: 339 Wervyn: 291 Total: 1273
#2: 7865 - Terryn: 318 KKairos: 314 Logicow: 304 Wervyn: 273 Total: 1209
#3: -1 - Terryn: 184 KKairos: 203 Logicow: 166 Wervyn: 166 Total: 719
#4: pi - Terryn: 206 KKairos: 205 Logicow: 98 Wervyn: 202 Total: 711
#5: 47238 - Terryn: 137 KKairos: 186 Logicow: 99 Wervyn: 145 Total: 567
#6: 0 - Terryn: 75 KKairos: 164 Logicow: 96 Wervyn: 95 Total: 430


No DQs, closest we got was #0 with a 7.5 out of the required 5 average theme score.
Very close race for 3rd.

And the judges scoresheets and comments are attached.

Attached File(s)


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<@Tixus> Anyway, I set the year to 1988 for some reason.
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#2 User is offline   Dr Lancer-X 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 12:49 PM

やった!ギリギリセーフ~
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#3 User is offline   Risu2112 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 01:03 PM

Well it's time for my bi annual DoZ results griefing.

I don't think any one can actually defend such recklessly high point distribution for theme & gameplay on the pi entry. I'm really scratching my head over that one. If people use the theme heavy it seems like we should be somewhat critical of how the theme is used. 50%+ awarded for saying "violence" in the introduction text, and then painting half of the board red seems like it should be highly offensive to any one who has ever actually spent serious effort carefully integrating elements into their entry to really satisfy the theme category.

I keep opening that game up in the editor thinking that I'm missing something... >.>
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#4 User is offline   Terryn 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 01:51 PM

View PostRisu2112, on 19 January 2011 - 07:03 AM, said:

If people use the theme heavy it seems like we should be somewhat critical of how the theme is used. 50%+ awarded for saying "violence" in the introduction text, and then painting half of the board red

I know you elaborated more on IRC, but just the text you posted here is pretty disingenuous. That's not all that game did, and you know it. Moving on to the bigger point, though, I'll explain the arguments for the board members.

Your first point, which I can give the biggest leeway to, is being upset at the general idea of higher baseline scores (in the 65-75% range) for theme than for other categories, with respect to the theme/heavy sheet. Much of this exists due to prior applications of the theme basically being a test to ensure that people are playing by the rules and making a relevant game first, and excellent craft second. The scoresheet separation makes this less of an obvious intent, but due to some of the ridiculous hand-waved topics of some games and mashed-up engine games that are submitted, it still makes some sense to approach even the theme-heavy sheet with some of this.

Your second point, related to the first, is your contention that just mentioning the topic or doing a single thing related to the topic requires huge amounts of statutory points to be awarded under a higher-baseline system. The example you listed was a 10-second cut scene of a guy shooting someone getting 70/100 points on theme. I'm sorry, but there is no way that'd get past even 25, for several reasons: 1) no thematic gameplay; 2) no rationale; 3) no substance. Judges have a lot of discretion over how to interpret the categories, and often dock plenty of points for reasons that make sense but don't directly fit under the aegis of any given category. Sure, pi's plot was a throwaway paragraph, but it is reflected in the gameplay (rudimentary and unimaginative as it is). The game didn't turn into a stealth game or a game where you ran away from demons or anything else that could give a textual reference to VIOLNENT DEMINS and still have related gameplay, you fucking shot them. To death. And you always die in the end.

Your final point is that allowing a higher baseline effectively punishes the people who try to give the best thematic interpretation. Generally speaking, people who try to give the highest interpretation to the theme score will necessarily end up getting higher values in the story and/or gameplay fields than average as a consequence (save for extreme issues like a really broken game or a total word salad of a story, in which case they're going to be "punished" appropriately anyway). Explain to me how a game can be thematically very strong without paying any special attention to story or gameplay, please. Story ratings especially take internal hits whenever it doesn't mesh with the theme.
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#5 User is offline   Lachesis 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 02:57 PM

gg everybody, hopefully this won't be the last DoZ.
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#6 User is offline   KKairos 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:48 PM

Well, that was a DoZ.
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#7 User is offline   Risu2112 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:27 PM

I concede the line you quoted is an over simplification, but not by too wide of a margin. I disagree that it was disingenuous since the reason for this oversimplification was probably sleep deprivation and not some sort of malicious intent.

I feel this is the primary motivation for my disapproval.

Quote

"Your final point is that allowing a higher baseline effectively punishes the people who try to give the best thematic interpretation."


I feel the spirit of the theme category in the theme heavy score sheet is some what betrayed when points are awarded with a method similar to this:
for each(Content currentContent in DoZEntry)
  sum += calculateThemeRelevancy(currentContent)

themeScore = sum/DoZEntry.amountOfContent()

The problem with that method in my eyes is that it heavily punishes teams (either directly in points, or indirectly in wasted effort/time during the competition) by only considering the ratio and quality of themed content to the total amount of content.

Personally I have some internal value of how much content I expect from a DoZ game, in the event the entry falls significantly short of that then instead of looking at the themed content compared to supplied content, I compare it to the expected content. This is of course, GREATLY simplified:
for each(Content currentContent in DoZEntry)
  sum += calculateThemeRelevancy(currentContent)

if (DoZEntry.amountOfContent() >= minimumExpectedContent)
  themeScore = sum/DoZEntry.amountOfContent()
else
  themeScore = sum/minimumExpectedContent



I guess the question then is, are people actually using something like the first example to score the theme category? If they are, is that actually against the spirit of the theme score in the theme heavy score sheet (I believe it is)? Or are they doing some significantly different methodology that I might find reasonable and just coming up with completely different initial values that I did?

This post has been edited by Risu2112: 19 January 2011 - 07:37 PM

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#8 User is offline   Dr Lancer-X 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:18 PM

if (DoZ) {
  risu.Complain();
}

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#9 User is offline   Risu2112 

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:29 PM

View PostLancer-X, on 19 January 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

if (DoZ) {
  risu.Complain();
}



:confused:
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#10 User is offline   Baby Bonnie Hood 

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:10 AM

Vault when?
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#11 User is offline   Lachesis 

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 02:29 PM

Well, considering I had to upload the last one a couple of weeks before this DoZ happened, ...
"Let's just say I'm a GOOD hacker, AND virus maker. I'm sure you wouldn't like to pay for another PC would you?"

xx̊y (OST) - HELLQUEST (OST) - Zeux I: Labyrinth of Zeux (OST) (DOS OST)
w/ Lancer-X and/or asgromo: Pandora's Gate - Thanatos Insignia - no True(n) - For Elise OST
MegaZeux: Online Help File - Keycode Guide - Joystick Guide - Official GIT Repository
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#12 User is offline   Baby Bonnie Hood 

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 07:07 AM

Five things about Thanatos Insignia:

1. Melee attacks of monsters do negative damage, as in they heal you instead of hurt you.
2. What's the name of the song with the filename "bright.ogg"?
3. You can't die in the Zelda level. Which is fine because I keep getting hit by invisible bullets there.
4. Why do I wanna be a pop star?
5. PUDDI PUDDI
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#13 User is offline   Dr Lancer-X 

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:13 AM

1. They don't. Monsters don't even have melee attacks. YOUR melee attack (the vacuum drive) does heal the player, though- it's just a standard thing I like to have, where the melee weapon 'drains' strength off enemies. The Tsuruoni in Taoyarin did the same thing, as did the sword in the DoZ game Ataraxia.
2. Bright Pain, music by Blasterhead, sung by Hashimoto Miyuki
3. That's because there's no linked game over board in that .MZX file. You could copy it over if you really want.
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#14 User is offline   Baby Bonnie Hood 

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 11:50 AM

View PostLancer-X, on 13 April 2011 - 11:13 AM, said:

They don't. Monsters don't even have melee attacks. YOUR melee attack (the vacuum drive) does heal the player, though- it's just a standard thing I like to have, where the melee weapon 'drains' strength off enemies. The Tsuruoni in Taoyarin did the same thing, as did the sword in the DoZ game Ataraxia.


what

I thought the shot that passed through obstacles was the vacuum drive. So that thing where a monster suddenly charges was actually me? Huh.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Next time I can ask 'HELL SYSTEM' something, can I ask "what is love" with the appropriate response?
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#15 User is offline   CJA 

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 05:36 AM

View PostBaby Bonnie Hood, on 13 April 2011 - 07:50 AM, said:

Oh yeah, one more thing. Next time I can ask 'HELL SYSTEM' something, can I ask "what is love" with the appropriate response?

no :confused:
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#16 User is offline   Lachesis 

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 03:38 AM

View PostBaby Bonnie Hood, on 13 April 2011 - 01:07 AM, said:

3. You can't die in the Zelda level. Which is fine because I keep getting hit by invisible bullets there.

I assembled the level very hackishly and purposely didn't put the game over board in since I had configured it to be so difficult. Non-appearing bullets are probably because I set the number of enemies about as high as it'd go, or possibly too high (higher than level 8 anyway)

It was mostly just a bonus treat. I made much of the layout file during the DoZ but didn't go very far past that since I figured it would have been borderline-DQ material (non original content). I wouldn't have been able to finish those graphics during the DoZ, anyway.

This post has been edited by Lachesis: 15 April 2011 - 03:40 AM

"Let's just say I'm a GOOD hacker, AND virus maker. I'm sure you wouldn't like to pay for another PC would you?"

xx̊y (OST) - HELLQUEST (OST) - Zeux I: Labyrinth of Zeux (OST) (DOS OST)
w/ Lancer-X and/or asgromo: Pandora's Gate - Thanatos Insignia - no True(n) - For Elise OST
MegaZeux: Online Help File - Keycode Guide - Joystick Guide - Official GIT Repository
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