[Terryn]

 When the sheet's not explicitly defined, it defaults to the heavy for abstract and lite for concrete. I don't know exactly what to do with 95763, honestly, outside of DQing it (of course)

Also, 8 DQs was the most we've had, again, half the entries that time (Valor/Organized Crime).

[Exophase]

Sorry, I meant to say "highest percentage" of games disqualified.

I know how the defaults work, but it seems to me that several games don't actually suggest a topic, let alone a scoresheet.

[Seventh Shade]

Maybe you guys need to set up some kind of auto-filter to see if packages recieved actually contain a mzx file and don't contain exe, zzt, or whatever other kinds of unwanted files. That won't prevent LOOK AT MY JAPANESE VIDEO OF SOMETHING JAPANESE IT IS JAPANESE AND THEREFORE AWESOME.

[Exophase]

Seventh Shade, on 18 July 2010 - 09:24 PM, said:

Maybe you guys need to set up some kind of auto-filter to see if packages recieved actually contain a mzx file and don't contain exe, zzt, or whatever other kinds of unwanted files. That won't prevent LOOK AT MY JAPANESE VIDEO OF SOMETHING JAPANESE IT IS JAPANESE AND THEREFORE AWESOME.

I agree, although I don't think this work is really necessary; probably just enough to manually reject these entries from the redistribution. Maybe have a loser's pack for those who really want it.

[commodorejohn]

Exophase, on 19 July 2010 - 12:39 AM, said:

95763: No theme discernable

What are you talking about, the theme is right there on the title screen.

Now, "no game discernable," that's a perfectly valid criticism.

[Risu2112]

Exophase, on 18 July 2010 - 04:39 PM, said:

3656: No .mzx?? Wait, a build of MZX in DOS? Man, fuck you.

This and,

Exophase, on 18 July 2010 - 04:39 PM, said:

As an aside: I don't mind stupid/joke entries that are insta-DQs. But this time around we're looking at 31.4MB, of which 27MB is spent on executables/source code and stupid videos. So please, stop wasting our bandwidth and stop using the DoZ as a way to force people to look at your stupid shit.

This.


If some one stuck a bunch of image files of their last vacation in a .zip and submitted it to the archive we would reject it. Why do we redistribute and archive DoZ entries that don't even contain .mzx's? Just throw them out.

[Mr_Alert]

commodorejohn, on 18 July 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

What are you talking about, the theme is right there on the title screen.

I don't think "hello" was one of the topics available.

[asiekierka]

exophase: lolilover said that '[11:14] <lolilover> generally as long as the application has some feasible use outside the DoZ it's fine'.
1) I've made my video converter DURING the DoZ.
2) The app that makes the "what color goes where" and "what char/color to put when"'s output can be used outside the DoZ or even outside MegaZeux, so it's also fine. (I consulted that one for 30 minutes with lolilover)
3) Theme for 85132 is said outright on the title screen AND in the scoresheet_info.txt.
4) why do you want to ban super mario bros super show AND justin bieber, bro
5) The videos have feasible use outside the DoZ so IMHO they should be fine.

[Exophase]

By the way, did anyone else's jaw hit the floor when they saw the credits to 22625? It's going to be hard to keep saying things about logicow winning DoZs with logicow games after this..

[T-Bone]

lol I'm interesting in seeing these games now.

[Exophase]

buhh pointless apologetics

asiekierka, on 19 July 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

exophase: lolilover said that '[11:14] <lolilover> generally as long as the application has some feasible use outside the DoZ it's fine'.

Great. Now how exactly are we determining "feasible use"? Or maybe better put, what wouldn't have a feasible use? Of course I disagree with Lancer's opinion on this and hope future DoZ's don't adopt this mindset, and I certainly hope that the escalation we've seen that has resulted in this level of non-DoZ entries this time is not encouraged any longer.

asiekierka, on 19 July 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

1) I've made my video converter DURING the DoZ.

Don't care, you were using non-audio material that you didn't make, during the DoZ or otherwise. The content in your game was made almost exclusively before the DoZ.

asiekierka, on 19 July 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

2) The app that makes the "what color goes where" and "what char/color to put when"'s output can be used outside the DoZ or even outside MegaZeux, so it's also fine. (I consulted that one for 30 minutes with lolilover)

Great, so maybe at the very least you could have stopped at including that and not including the stupid video.

asiekierka, on 19 July 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

3) Theme for 85132 is said outright on the title screen AND in the scoresheet_info.txt.

Just because I said "see 41608" doesn't mean everything I said about 41608 applies to your entry.

asiekierka, on 19 July 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

4) why do you want to ban super mario bros super show AND justin bieber, bro

Why would anyone not want to ban them..

And finally:

asiekierka, on 19 July 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

5) The videos have feasible use outside the DoZ so IMHO they should be fine.

Now it comes full circle and we're back to trying to define "feasible use." Since I guess that includes anything anyone could theoretically enjoy that now includes anything.

In short, shame on you Lancer for actually encouraging this shit.

[mzxgiant]

Maybe we should start having a list of "programs you can use". Palzor and charworks included, plus the two converters Alert made (that ajs is moving into MZX proper, last I checked).

Shouldn't that be sufficient?


edit: Dammit asie, why the HELL are you making it so we have to do this in the first place!?

[asiekierka]

mzxgiant, in 2007/08 i made a game that looked like a game but crashed MZX.

Also, if you ban video converters as external apps i can just easily make them fully internal in Robotic.

And for the next DoZ i can actually film stuff during the DoZ, can't I?


But TBH to stop any video conversion you should leave Palzor, Charcon and Charworks there. And nothing else.

[asgromo]

I think there should be more point-by-point rebuttals to asiekierka about whether or not he's wasting our time

[Dr Lancer-X]

Exophase, on 20 July 2010 - 01:50 AM, said:

Great. Now how exactly are we determining "feasible use"? Or maybe better put, what wouldn't have a feasible use? Of course I disagree with Lancer's opinion on this and hope future DoZ's don't adopt this mindset, and I certainly hope that the escalation we've seen that has resulted in this level of non-DoZ entries this time is not encouraged any longer.

Exophase, on 20 July 2010 - 01:50 AM, said:

In short, shame on you Lancer for actually encouraging this shit.

i said application. i was not referring to taking VIDEO from other places that you most certainly didn't create yourself and didn't create in the DoZ and using it as input to produce whatever. that is still very OBVIOUSLY a violation of the DoZ rules and asie said nothing to me about it at all when he talked to me about it

either stop projecting or explain exactly what your issue is with my external software exemption. i felt i was fairly explicit when explaining this before. the solution is not to only allow a couple of specific applications; why should we be forced to use either crippled shit like palzor and charworks just because someone happened to convert a video for some DoZ using an application created beforehand which was in contravention of other rules ANYWAY.

[duvel]

Why are we even arguing. Whether or not you can DQ asie (the answer is yes you can, sorry asie you failed) he's going to get all 0s.

[Terryn]

<@Terryn> remember when we were considering banning asie from his doz entries ever counting again, automatically

[Exophase]

asgromo, on 19 July 2010 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think there should be more point-by-point rebuttals to asiekierka about whether or not he's wasting our time

Hey, that torrent utterly crawled for me and took a pretty long time to download. This is not a moot argument and it should have an impact on DoZ distribution in the future. Would you prefer if I just responded to him en-masse? He listed his points laid out so...

Lancer-X said:

either stop projecting or explain exactly what your issue is with my external software exemption. i felt i was fairly explicit when explaining this before. the solution is not to only allow a couple of specific applications; why should we be forced to use either crippled shit like palzor and charworks just because someone happened to convert a video for some DoZ using an application created beforehand which was in contravention of other rules ANYWAY.

"Projecting"? Man, here I thought "passive aggressive" was over/misused, but this really takes the cake. I'm not even sure if I should ask you to explain that.

Look, this is all a pretty big misunderstanding. asiekierka in his infinite retardedness took your quote grossly out of context (probably on purpose) in order to make it look like you were talking about what's "okay" for people to submit. Basically saying "go ahead and submit insta-DQed shit, so long as it can be construed as serving some kind of purpose", rather than being a statement about what utilities you can use, something I never talked about in my original post on this thread. That might sound awfully stupid. But it'd also be exactly the kind of statement that would convince people it's okay to submit DOS ports of MZX (and I'm gonna blame the SuperZZT submission on the DOS port because I guess someone thought that was funny), and from asie's comments I can only conclude that that's exactly how he took it. Or chose to take it.

Yes, it's going to be DQed. But this stuff shouldn't even be distributed. And we should do whatever we can to discourage this shit.

asiekierka's done good DoZ's before, I think someone just needs to smack him upside the head a few hundred times so he gets more clearly what is and isn't suitable for DoZ. Of course there's no point singling him out this time. I feel more like taking dragging out and shooting whoever did that other video conversion, for busting my eardrums a few times.

(yes this post was edited a lot as it became clearer to me just wtf was going on here, if anyone was busy taking an hour to reply go delete it and reply again)

[Lachesis]

External utilities are clearly not the issue here, it's people doing retarded shit with them and wasting everybody's time -- therefore, it isn't the use of external utilities that should be punished (by disallowing use of them), but instead the people who use them with intent to piss everybody off. Perhaps the best way to deal with this is to give the DoZ games to the judges alone, first, and distribute the games to everybody else after the judges have had time to throw out the obvious pieces of shit (eg Asie's submission). This way, people submitting joke games don't get an audience and everybody else doesn't get their time wasted, at the cost of having to wait a couple of days or so for the download.

[Exophase]

Lachesis, on 19 July 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:

External utilities are clearly not the issue here, it's people doing retarded shit with them and wasting everybody's time -- therefore, it isn't the use of external utilities that should be punished (by disallowing use of them), but instead the people who use them with intent to piss everybody off. Perhaps the best way to deal with this is to give the DoZ games to the judges alone, first, and distribute the games to everybody else after the judges have had time to throw out the obvious pieces of shit (eg Asie's submission). This way, people submitting joke games don't get an audience and everybody else doesn't get their time wasted, at the cost of having to wait a couple of days or so for the download.

Exactly...

I'm amazed this turned into an argument on how to prevent people from submitting video to the DoZ. Video is fine, so long as a) it's part of an actual DoZ game and not you just stuffing content into a .mzx because you know people will view it and b) you actually created the video content. That's all.

[asgromo]

Yeah, Lachesis is about right. No reason necessarily to throw them out, of course, as what's worthless will always be SOMEWHAT subjective, but a simple enough solution that could be executed next time is letting the host or any available judges look through first and split the pointless crap into a pointless crap subfolder/separate download. Take advantage of piecemeal torrent downloading and save everyone time and bandwidth.

Oh, and Exo, no, I was being kind of a douchebag is all. I don't think it's a moot issue, necessarily. Just that asiekierka probably need not be included in its discussion (maybe this is a little insensitive or disingenuous).

yet another edit: in fact, how about this. just disqualify first, THEN release. disqualification really shouldn't take long at all, the onus need not be on the judges to do it, to look at the games in the first place, to write about them, and people can stop caring about the games off the bat. Any proper host should probably be trusted with that limited fiat power/responsibility...

I understand that's what Lachesis basically just said. JUST SPELLIN' IT OUT A LITTLE MORE

[iamgreaser]

The thing about asie's entry was that it was supposed to be serious and he came up with an at-least-mildly-epic engine, but didn't know what to do with it. We had a plan (or two (or three (or ... (... (or n)))) together to submit a horrible joke entry until I realised that Lancer was judging and thought this would be a great opportunity to do something serious as I might have a chance to WIN for once (how the heck do you beat a raycaster with a visual novel + CRAPPY BATTLE ENGINE, anyway - srsly, Reconquista Escalation was a lot more enjoyable).

asie didn't want to go with that plan, so we split, I did something serious (ending up doing pretty much the whole thing on my own), he tried to do something serious and then pretty much gave up (although hearing about the 15FPS to 137FPS improvement was sounding promising), falling back to one of the plans (awful video to make the judges cringe).

There was another plan, but it'll have to wait till next time when we have less chance of winning (asie, you could've still tried to emulate an 8086, i don't think they're THAT impossible; besides, you had at least 10 hours left).

In all honesty, the idea of a horrible joke game came from me feeling completely smashed soon after going full-circle (24 hours) at the last DoZ. I could not attempt that this time, and TBQH I had no intention of doing it even if I could, as it is now the second week of the second trimester of university.

Exophase, on 19 July 2010 - 12:39 PM, said:

95763: No theme discernable

The theme was Immortality, as indicated by the health not going down.

Not that I was a part of that team, though.

[weasel]

iamgreaser, on 19 July 2010 - 02:33 PM, said:

how the heck do you beat a raycaster with a visual novel + CRAPPY BATTLE ENGINE, anyway

By writing a pretty damn good story and making the game consistent. The raycaster was impressive, but swapping the fire key from Space to Control rather irritated me, and when are we going to abandon the concept of MZX games starring MZXers?

[Exophase]

iamgreaser, on 19 July 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

The theme was Immortality, as indicated by the health not going down.

Not that I was a part of that team, though.

No. Just no.

[CJA]

GM and I are the only ones meant to understand that

Don't think too hard about ninety-seven thousand five hundred and sixty-three

[Captain Failmore]

yall mad

so mad

[Baby Bonnie Hood]

weasel, on 19 July 2010 - 10:02 PM, said:

...when are we going to abandon the concept of MZX games starring MZXers?

When someone goes back in time and assassinates Inmate before he makes Cans.

[Exophase]

Baby Bonnie Hood, on 19 July 2010 - 09:54 PM, said:

When someone goes back in time and assassinates Inmate before he makes Cans.

Gotcha. On it.

[asgromo]

Yeah, that's totally a good idea, let's be more picky about the names of the characters in the minuscule few MegaZeux games released.

[Risu2112]

We need at least two more DoZ rule proposals before we can move on to semi-annual DoZ judge bashing extravaganza!

I predict this time around the hammer gets dropped on Wervyn for submitting protest scores that are all negative, while lancer submits his of course entirely in japanese.


I'll get the next proposal rolling:

Judges should have to submit their results as .pdf's to make them more official looking.